techies to the rescue, please -- u-12 or ext. e9

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Jun 2002 8:39 am

Brian-you are getting a lot of ideas and good advice from these guys. Carl Dixon's setup is very well thought out, and very complete.

You might check Larry Bell's setup, he gets a lot out of just 6 pedals.

Jim Smith's look pretty good but no low B but you can get along without it.

I would keep the 9th string D in there, for a lot of reasons mentioned.

It also gives you a nice E6 when you lower it to C# . As far as the 2nd string D#, that's a keeper.

When you are in E9 mode, that is the Emaj7 chord and then you lower it to C# it goes to Emaj6th.

Along with this, lower your G# to G to get that tonic E minor, a lot of guys are doing that, or raise the F# 7th string to G.(And maybe the 1st too.) This way you are still using E9 as your basic tuning.

Some nice pop,jazz stuff without going to B6.

I Agree with Jim Smith and Bobby Lee on this, I don't like STandard E9/B6 compared to EXt. E9. personally.

This is a little off post but:
Back in the old days of Speedy West, Jody
Carver, we used a lot of E13th. Which is like BE now has on his experimental 12 string tuning.

Extended E9 is almost like E13 if you use the C# between the E 4th string and B fifth string. But you can use the 2nd string D# to C# and get some of those effects....al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 02 June 2002 at 09:54 AM.]

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 2 Jun 2002 5:07 pm

I should mention one other thing that makes me think about keeping the low the low B on my guitar.

The low B does not raise to C# with the a-pedal. Instead, it lowers to A with the b-pedal. This gives the A+B pedal major chord the low root note.

(Low B goes to C# with the LKV). Neat change, but I'm not sure yet how much I will use it. Thoughts?

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Jun 2002 5:35 pm

Brian- do you mean the 9th string B or 12 string B? The 9th string B Would give you a A root for the pedals down chord, if you dropped it down a tone.
The 12 string B going to A is a nice sound and some guys use it. But what pedal or knee lever would you put it on?....al

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 2 Jun 2002 6:19 pm

Al-

To summarize:

A-pedal:
raises strings 5 and 9 from B to C#
(does not raise string 12 at all)

B-pedal:
raises strings 3 and 6 from G# to a
AND: lowers atring 12 from B to A

LKV:
raises string 12 from B to C#

Therefore:

A+B pedal = big fat strummable chord, as long as you skip the F# on string 7.

A pedal + LKV = same deal w/minor chord, again skipping the F#.

Neat effect: Start with A-pedal+LKV. Play resulting minor chord at the bottom of the neck. Release LKV, C# (str 12) drops to B, then push A+B, str 12 drops to A (root note, of course).

Presto! Instant 'pipe-organy' walk out of the minor to the IV chord.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Jun 2002 9:09 pm

Does your B pedal also raise the 10th string G# to A?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Jun 2002 6:57 am

This begs the question of what IS a UNIVERSAL TUNING?

My definition is simple. It duplicates, to the greatest extent possible, the two principal tunings: E9 and C6.

I can play anything that can be played on C6 -- ANYTHING. I can play MOST anything that can be played on E9. I can play some things that neither tuning allows -- often because of the limited low range of E9 and the (slightly less) limited high range of C6. In addition, positions can be combined and mixed and matched (hopefully with TASTE) in ways D-10 players don't think about. I don't have the ability to play, e.g., a quick triplet of B-D-E since I don't have the dedicated D string, but I have never found this to be a problem. Raising B to D on 9 gives you the D-E adjacency and lowering 8 from E to D gives you the B-D adjacency. Lowering 7 from F# to E (which is equivalent to G to F on C6) is a useful C6 change that would restore that three note cluster. I have not found any important E9 patterns that I can't duplicate.

The C6 tuning is evolving. Some are removing the bottom string and adding a D (which would be C# on the universal). I have tried this several years ago and didn't like it. I play a lot of standard, traditional C6 style on B6 and the lower string grips are engrained in my mind. Maybe I'm getting old.

Jim's 13-string tuning wouldn't work for me either. I love the idea of having the extra string PLUS the low B, but all my string grips for the sixth tuning would have to be relearned (not sure how Jim did it -- he's been playing C6 longer than me).

For anyone who cares, my website (referenced below) includes my minimal 6x6 copedent that's on my push-pull S-12 and the 'Full Monte' setup that's on my Fessenden guitar with 8x8 -- ALL LEVERS AVAILABLE AT ALL TIMES. I personally would not play a guitar with two sets of left levers. It is counter to the universal principle, to my way of thinking. I may just be a stodgy old fart, but adding the C# or D string is not in the cards for me.

But, then, that's just me.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 3 Jun 2002 7:06 am

Bobby-

Yes B-pedal takes string 10 to A - forgot to
mention it.

So A+B pedal sould be:

3 A
4 E
5 C#
6 A
7 --
8 E
9 C#
10 A
11 E
12 A

Makes for a pretty fat sound, but like I say, I'm not sure if strummable chords are what I'm after.

Low strings can sound kind of rubber-band like unless I pick carefully (which I try to do).

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 3 Jun 2002 10:24 am

Larry- I have heard you play great E9 country and B6 jazz on your S12. So I would say you are playing a "Universal" because you are getting it all.

I would also say that Maurice Anderson is getting it all on his S12, so he must be playing a "Universal" too.

And there are others playing a S12 "Universal", Joe Wright comes to mind for one........al

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Jun 2002 11:21 am

Hi Brian,
I have added most all of the standard E9th changes (plus a few extras) to the low end (strings 9-12) of my S12U.
Really opens up your ability to play solo and still sound very full.
Give me a call if you want to hear my setup demonstrated over the phone (503-452-3756).

Here are some of my current thoughts from the E9th side of my S12U:

I agree, string 12(B) needs to go to both C# and A (where you locate these changes is personal preferance). I'm thinking of hooking string 12 up to go from B to Bb also but haven't added that change yet).

String 11(E) goes to Eb, E, F, F# on similar pedals/levers to string 4.

String 10(G#) goes to both G and A along with strings 3 and 6 (I lower all G#'s to G on pedal 0, to the left of the A pedal, and raise all G#'s to A on the B pedal).

String 9(B) goes to Bb, B, C, C#, D.

I also raise string 12 from B to C# on the lever that raises all my E's to F (So when you do the A+F combo string 12 is C#).

Again, in my case anyway, I see these changes as a means of opening up my ability to play solo and still sound very full.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 3 Jun 2002 2:28 pm

The following is one of my knee lever pulls.

F#
C#
E
B
G#
F#
E
C#
G#
E
A

I love this change because it gives me a C# on the 9th string and a B on the 5th string. Yet another C# on the 2nd string. But what really makes it great is when I add the B pedal with it. It gives the following:

F#
C#
A
E
B
A
F#
E
C#
A
E
A

An incredible strummed chord beginning with string 12 and walking each string all the way up to and including the 1st string. I love it. It gives a full A6 chord with an added suspended 9th. If you have not tried this, you will love it. Used as a big ending, say on a beautiful hymn will bring chills down your spine.

Praise his holy name,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Jun 2002 4:55 pm

I'm sure you skipped the high G# in that first stack'o'notes, Carl.