Suggestions on c6th knees

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 4 Apr 2002 9:52 am

I'm about to order some knee levers. I have a setup figured out and I was hoping maybe I can get some sugestion/opinions on it, especially with the idea in mind of using some knees together.
I currently have:
RKL: C to B lower/3rd string
RKR: A to Bb raise/4th string
I'm thinking of adding:
LKL: A to Ab lower/4th string
LKR: C to C# raise/3rd string
LKV: D to D# raise/1st string
RKV: G to F lower/5th string OR E to F raise on 6th string.
I'm not sure which one to go for on the RKV. I have a D string in the middle of the neck so I'm thinking with that in mind.
I also changed:
pedal 4 raises C to C#/8th string.
I dropped the BooWah and want to do something with pedal 8 involving the low strings(7-10), maybe lowering string 8 from C to B. I have been mainly looking at Dan Tyack's and Bob Hoffnar's copedants for ideas.
I am aiming for a copedant that caters to modern jazz voicings and importantly, half step dissonances(especially in strings 1-5). This setup is not final, it just seems it may work well. I'm wide open to any thoughts about optimizing it. Thanks.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Apr 2002 11:15 am

James, I believe RKV's are a very rare bird, since operating one would play hob with the volume pedal. On the other hand, I have seen guitars with two LKV's.

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Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 4 Apr 2002 11:24 am

I agree with Herb on the RKV. I have one on my Dekley but unhooked it as it was almost impossible to use without changing the volume.

I think it makes sense to set your levers as Buddy Emmons does. He has the C raise and lower on his right knee and the A raise and lower on his left knee. You'll get more combinations that way.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Apr 2002 12:16 pm

That's good Advice from the Professionals. Herb's suggestion of two LV is good.
Put the B to C lower on the LRV and the A to G# lower on the LLV . If the are crossed and close enough you can hit them together and get some nice extra stuff. I would not get rid of the Boowah pedal but instead move it from 8 to 4th pedal so the foot is right next to the p5. Then I would add the 3rd string pull C to C# to that to get a full dom7 chord two frets down from the tonic. Pretty handy. If you want some Dissonance Jazz sounds, drop the 5thstring G down a whole tone to F, Lots of stuff there I won't go into detail now, too busy....al

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Apr 2002 12:16 pm

Jim and Herbster nailed it.
For the 4KL C6 setup, the Big E's levers allow the most flexibility. Putting the 3rd string changes on one knee and the 4th on the other allow maximum ability to combine.

If you're looking at structuring the C6 tuning for 'modern chord voicings' -- I suggest you check out Paul Franklin's C6 changes, either on his website or b0b's Tuning section.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 4 Apr 2002 12:21 pm

Hi Maybe he meant 2 LKVs. How do you say it?
LKVL & LKVR??? I think I've seen it charted, but I don't remember how it was said.

Michael McGee · Post by **Michael McGee** » 4 Apr 2002 1:07 pm

Give careful consideration to the RKV. I love mine. And it can work on both necks, not just C6th.

Yes, it takes a certain amount of time to get used to it.

Be careful to use a change with less travel rather than more.

Consider the height of your knee when on the volume pedal.

And, another thing no one mentioned here on the forum when I was 'fishing' for ideas on it - it will use some muscles that you've most likely never used before!

And 2 left verticals would be fine, also. Sometimes, on a multi-levered guitar (love is a many-levered thing? man, that's awful) it gets pretty cramped for space there. Just analyze your combinations carefully.

Good luck,

Mike[This message was edited by Michael McGee on 04 April 2002 at 01:39 PM.]

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 5 Apr 2002 7:50 am

Alright! I especially like the idea of having the c raise and lower on one knee, and the a raise and lower on the other knee. If that is the most useful for combinations between the two, that is what I want. I have been thinking about a right knee vertical, I'm not sure about that yet. I don't want problems with the volume. I have never heard of two LKV. Is the second just behind the first?
I don't miss the BooWah yet. I've been enjoying using pedal 4 and 5 together. I have the F to F# on my tenth string. Using them together gives me some great modal stuff. I've been relearning lots of scales, because that D in there simplified the patterns and made them speedworthy. What a plus for single line stuff. Guys, thanks for the ideas. To get advice from people with experience dealing with this is invaluable to me.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Apr 2002 10:38 am

I've been enjoying using pedal 4 and 5 together. I have the F to F# on my tenth string. Using them together gives me some great modal stuff

James, could you give us a couple of examples of the modal stuff that you get. Please try to make the examples specific (key, chord, fret position, notes, etc.)? Thanks very much in advance. .. Jeff

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Apr 2002 7:39 am

James,

All of the suggestions are good ones.

Here's mine for whatever its worth.

LKL lower 4 and 8 a half tone.

LKVL lower 5 a whole tone.

LKVR raise 6 a half tone. (possibly add the lowering of the 2nd string a whole tone with this. A great change!)

RKL lower 3 a half tone.

RKR raise 3 a half tone. (Also consider raising 9 a half a tone with it. You can then use this with the 5th pedal for an A6th chord using most of the strings).

And to answer your question, the two left verticals are side by side. NOT forward and rear like two left knee levers. There is enough room. I have done it. The late Fred Trogdon of the Emmons' company showed me how.

God bless you with your attempts,

carl

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 7 Apr 2002 6:05 pm

Carl- thanks for looking out for me. I always appreciate your advice.
jeff- on my previous setup, I would never use pedal 5 and 8 together. Now I use pedal 5 as I normally would, but I can combine it with the c# raise I have on pedal 4. I can get a minor seven chord scale with a root on the F string and have that lower minor third. I used to only be able to get that flat five. I've also been heftily enjoying using my A string as the root and using pedal 4 for a major chord scale. From string 9...1-A, 3-C#, 4-D. 5-E 6-F# with pedal 5 or G without. This gives me that valuable sus. sound, 1-4-b7, with that fourth in there. I like using this position as a link to that IV, V chord pocket. It's a nice alternative to the ii amd iii chord pockets. It also gives a different sound when your playing lines over that I major chord It's hard for me to brief when talking about this modal stuff. I could branch off into a variety of ideas related to modal thinking from here. There is alot to be listed.

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 7 Apr 2002 6:12 pm

I'd like to add that this d string opens up lots.. I'm relearning more efficient scale patterns and minimizing bar movement...really generates speed and opens up new phrasing ideas and harmonies. Yeah...real good stuff... I'm playing a lot more confidently and melodically on the lower half of the tuning.

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · Post by **Buck Grantham R.I.P.** » 9 Apr 2002 4:40 pm

Here's my 2 cents.. When I started to play pedals, I thought that I knew best what to put on my knee pedal s and where to put it. After about 15 years and a lot of changing things I realized one day that my set up was exactly the same as one of the national known players . Soooo I wasted 15 years that I could have been learning how to play the guitar. Had I just went ahead and put Buddy Emmons or John Hughey or some one like that who's ben out there forever's set up on my guitar , I would be a much better player today. Don't worry the small stuff, just spend all your time playing the guitar not changing it .If someone had told me this a long time ago I probably wouldn't have listened . But just think about it.